Matthews: You also disagree with him [Bush] on torture.

McCain: Absolutely. And could I take a few seconds on that? because I think it's important and I think it's what America is all about and what kind of country we are. We should never, ever torture anyone who is in the custody of the United States of America because (applause) because the struggle we're in with radical Islamic fundamentalism which is going to be with us for decades, and that is that it's a military,diplomatic, intelligence and ideological struggle. If we're not any better than our enemies, then doesn't it make it harder for young people to choose.

I was in Bagdad in Thanksgiving of last year. I met with a high ranking, former high ranking member of al Qaeda*. I asked him, "how did you do so well after the initial military success of the Americans and the coalition forces had. He said two thing: on was the lawlessness that took place after the Americans and their allies won the military victory. But he said the second was Abu Ghraib. He said Abu Ghraib was my greatest recruiting tool. Everybody here knows what Abu Ghraib was. So my point is that for the future of this country, we have to make sure that we remain a nation that does not do things that our enemies do.

And I promise you, my friends, that I'll close Guantanamo Bay and we will never torture another person in our custody again. (wild applause)

I'll make my further answers shorter, but that's a very important question about what kind of a country we are and what kind of country we've been and what kind of a country we'll be for the 21st century.

Matthews: (dreamy sigh...) I want to get back to what kind of a vision you have for your presidency...

Senator John McCain’s vote last week against a bill to curtail the Central Intelligence Agency's use of harsh interrogation tactics disappointed human rights advocates who consider him an ally and led Democrats to charge that he was trying to please Republicans as he seeks to rally them around his presidential bid.

The bill, which the Senate passed Wednesday by 51 to 45, would force the C.I.A. to abide by the rules set out in the Army Field Manual on Interrogation, which prohibits physical force and lists approved interrogation methods.

Mr. McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, has led the battle in recent years on a number of bills to end torture by the United States. He said he voted against the bill Wednesday because legislation he had helped to pass already prohibits the C.I.A. from “cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment.”

Mr. McCain, of Arizona, said he believed it would be a mistake to limit C.I.A. interrogators to using only those techniques that were enumerated in the Field Manual, which he noted was a public document.

[...]

The problem, human rights advocates say, is that disagreement remains over which tactics are prohibited. Mr. McCain, for example, said waterboarding — a simulated drowning technique — was an illegal form of torture. But while the C.I.A. says it no longer uses waterboarding, the Bush administration has not ruled out its use in the future.

“It’s disappointing,” said Jennifer Daskal, a senior counsel at Human Rights Watch, “that Senator McCain, who has long made it clear that Congress had intended to outlaw abusive interrogation techniques including waterboarding, won’t stand up to an administration that continues to say waterboarding is O.K. in certain circumstances.”

Although Mr. McCain has battled the Bush administration over whether waterboarding is illegal, his vote on Wednesday allied him with President Bush, who has threatened to veto the bill.

[...]

Mr. McCain, according to a Senate aide of his, believes that while the C.I.A. should be — and is — prohibited from using cruel and inhumane and degrading tactics, it should have the flexibility to use acceptable tactics that are not listed in the Field Manual.

In a Republican presidential debate on Nov. 28, McCain said that the Army Field Manual should be the gold standard for interrogations:

I would hope that we would understand, my friends, that life is not 24 and Jack Bauer. Life is interrogation techniques which are humane and yet effective. And I just came back from visiting a prison in Iraq. The army general there said that techniques under the Army Field Manual are working and working effectively, and he didn’t think they need to do anything else. My friends, this is what America is all about.