Always And Forever Wrong

CM:And when Marty Peretz's daughter wrote that story in Vanity Fair a couple of months ago, I'm sorry, she didn't make the case. Gore got himself in those problem areas by vanity and showing off an trying to make himself cool. But John Kerry got unfair treatment. I think it's a big difference guys.

Crowley: that may be so, but it's not how many Democrats feel.

CM: Well, why would expect a partisan to think anything more than partisan? That's what partisans think? Of course they think they were rooked. Everyone who loses an election thinks they were rooked and they blame it on the umpire.

Crowley: That's the audience they're speaking to.

CM: Yeah, well how about getting into the land of truth and understanding?.

If Matthews had paused to take a breath back in January, he might have heard Grayson struggling to point out that he had talked to Democratic leaders who had researched ways to defeat a filibuster and pass healthcare.

Instead, the interviewer boasted about his knowledge of Senate procedure and his own talks with congressional leaders. He accused Grayson of "pandering to the netroots" -- liberal activists clamoring online for passage of the law without understanding the Ways of Washington. Matthews ridiculed the idea that Grayson, filled with "outsider talk," could know anything substantial about the inside Washington scene.

When I spoke to Matthews after his show Tuesday evening, he said that he intended to have Grayson back on "Hardball," probably soon. But don't set your DVR in anticipation of some Potomac-sized mea culpa.

Matthews told me that, smoldering YouTube clip notwithstanding, it was Grayson who got it wrong back in January. He said the congressman was obviously referring back then to the House passing a new piece of legislation, rather than signing on to the approved Senate health bill and then having differences reconciled.

"He denied the House had to pass the Senate bill and then have reconciliation," Matthews said at one point. "I never got an answer from him, all I got was a posture. He wasn't helping me explain it. He was just taking a position."

Let's just say that seems a tad, uh, ungenerous. Especially because the lawmaker had to make do mostly with sentence fragments, in the face of Matthews' unrelenting inquisition. When pressed by Matthews, though, Grayson did manage to suggest taking further action on a bill "already passed with 60 votes." That would seem to refer to the health reform passed by the U.S. Senate, not launching entirely new legislation.

Matthews further theorizes that Grayson wanted to use the reconciliation process as a backdoor to fulfill his goal of enacting the so-called "public option," giving Americans a government-run alternative to private health insurance. I'm not sure how the MSNBC star would know that, though, since the congressman never mentioned the public option. And his interviewer never asked about it.

Finally, Matthews urged me to take more time and to speak to Senate leaders and parliamentarians. I would understand that he had it right all along. But it seems to me Matthews created this mess all on his own, just by being too much of himself.

Grayson is not one you would expect to shrink from this sort of high-tech, high-noon showdown. This is the guy who had to apologize after calling a female lobbyist "a K Street whore," who suggested the Republican plan for healthcare amounted to "die quickly if you get sick" and who compared Dick Cheney to a vampire with "blood that drips from his teeth."

But the onetime lawyer and telecom executive exhibited a marked restraint Tuesday when I asked about Matthews. "You have seen the clip," he said. "I described exactly what has happened and I did it two months ago. I don't think there is a single thing I said that didn't turn out to be the God's honest truth."

Not quite. Grayson did predict the reconciliation would be completed in "30 days or less." Unless something goes haywire in the Senate, it now looks like the process will be complete in a little more than two months.

Mathews: Ok, ok. This show is about reality. Tell me how you pass this bill with 41. You just got a guy elected in Massachusetts ...

Grayson: Reconciliation takes 51

Matthews: ... he signs his name 41. It means it's enough to ..

Grayson: Reconciliation needs 51 Senators

Matthews: What procedure do you know that Harry Reid doesn't know?

Grayson: What makes you think Harry isn't going to do it?

Matthews: ... that all those top guys, that Ted Kennedy didn't know..

Grayson: They said they're not going to move to reconciliation?

Matthews: This secret move to the Indies that only you know about ...

Grayson: What are you talking about? They've been talking about this ...

Matthews: These Senators can't do it!

Grayson: Why do you think they can't use reconciliation?

Matthews: Because you talk to any one of these Senators. Have you talked to any of them lately? And what do you think they'll tell you?

Grayson: What do you think, I'm their confessor?

Matthews: Have you ever called up a Democratic Senator and said why don't you do this by reconciliation?

Grayson: What makes you think they're not going to do it? What do you know that I don't know?

Matthews: Because they refuse to do it because they cannot get past the filibuster rule. The United States Senate is different from the House.You're allowed to talk as long as you want in the Senate. Unless you get cloture.

Grayson: Reconciliation is 51 votes not 60 votes.

Matthews: You can't create a program through reconciliation! Congressman just name me the program that's ever been created through reconciliation!

Grayson: Tax cuts for the rich!

Matthews: That's not a program. Under reconciliation you're allowed to do two things. Change fiscal numbers, raise taxes or cut spending.

Grayson: You're saying that. You don't know that. Nobody else thinks that.

Matthews: I just spent three years in the Senate budget committee when I was a kid and you can't do it. By the way, have you asked any Senator this question? This plan you have?

Grayson: I'm in the other place, I'm in the House.

Matthews: I know, that's why you're not in the senate

Grayson: Oh that's why I'm not in the Senate...

Matthews: This is netroots talk. This is outsider talk and you're an elected official and you know you can't do it. You are pandering to the netroots right now. I know what you're doing.

Grayson: You are wrong. This is something we talk about with our leadership in our caucus meetings every week! ...

Matthews: ...I know what I'm talking about and you ask anybody in the Senate right no. Go call the Senate legislative counsel's office and ask him if you can do this. Go ask the parliamentarian is you can do this. You haven't bothered to do that.

Grayson: No my leadership has done that ..