KURTZ: Let's turn now to media bias.

E.J. Dionne, you wrote a column recently saying there is no longer any such thing as the big, liberal media. Is this a fantasy we've been talking about for some years now?

DIONNE: No, I mean, if you want to go back to the Goldwater campaign, I think that the press was biased against Barry Goldwater in 1964. Yes, you can make a case for that.

A lot has changed. I think, number one, the definition of the media has changed. You have three broad parts of the media that in turn affect the burgeoning network of online sources. You got talk radio, you got cable television, and then you've got the traditional press and networks news magazines and newspapers.

The first two are undoubtedly conservative leaning. And I think FOX has had an effect of pushing the other cable networks, including this one, to look over their right shoulder. I think talk radio is very clearly a conservative medium, and Laura is a representative of that.

And then the press, in the meantime, the so-called old mainstream media has been so affected by this constant barrage that you are biased -- you know, that the media is biased liberal, that they've been intimidated. I think two plus zero equals two, and that's a tilt to the right.

KURTZ: You're saying that the "New York Times" and the "L.A. Times" and "The Washington Post" and the networks and magazines have been intimidated and they're cowering and they can't do their jobs anymore?

INGRAHAM: I must have missed that.

DIONNE: That's not what I said.

(LAUGHTER)

INGRAHAM: I mean, I think in the cable news business it's a little bit different. And I think E.J. raises a good point, that when one network starts up with the objective of catering to a more conservative audience, which no doubt Fox does, the other networks are going to, sort of, reassess, especially when the ratings might not be as good as they want them to be.

However, conservatives, let's not forget, were very, very disgruntled and frustrated for so many years, decades, after seeing an elitist liberal tilt to the media. So what did they do? Well, conservatives decided, "Well,we're going to go to nontraditional avenues; we're going to go to talk radio;we're going to go to the Internet; we're going to, maybe, see if we can start around cable network." All that happened.

And now liberals are saying, "Wait a second. Wait a second. What about us? What about us?"

Well, maybe it's time to reexamine liberal principles that have been on the run for the last 25 years, not the fact that they only have the "New York Times," CBS, NBC, ABC, "Washington Post" and every other newspaper in the country.

DIONNE: I'm sorry to say this, but that's a big lie of the right, that these other media are biased liberal.

I mean, NBC, as you pointed out on one of your shows, had Rush Limbaugh on as an election night analyst. This is not biased liberal media.

INGRAHAM: That's different from regular coverage, E.J.

DIONNE: No, but the difference...

INGRAHAM: When they cover a Bush press conference, how is it covered? Is it covered in a fair and balanced way...

DIONNE: Bush has gotten an extraordinarily good press. I challenge you to compare...

INGRAHAM: He's been an extraordinarily good president, much to the media's chagrin.

[...]

KURTZ: ... in their work because they are become a part of this upper-middle class.

We just have about a minute left. You made a note of the fact that I had interviewed Rush Limbaugh on this program and then Tim Russert had interviewed Rush Limbaugh on his CNBC show as if that was some evidence of a conservativedom. Why shouldn't a guy with a huge radio audience get interviewed, just like Frank Rich (ph) and James Carville and all the people on the left?

DIONNE: I specifically mentioned that you guys had also had me on your show...

KURTZ: Right.

DIONNE: ... so that I wasn't criticizing you for having him on.

The point I was making is that when Tom Daschle went out and criticized Rush Limbaugh, if there were this big establishment liberal media, you would have expected them to go out after Rush Limbaugh. Instead the criticism, including a very strong column you wrote, went after Tom Daschle for criticizing Rush Limbaugh.

The point I was making is that Rush Limbaugh has now been mainstreamed. And that is -- there's nothing wrong with Rush Limbaugh trying to make himself a big deal. He's succeeded. It is evidence that this conservative network that Laura is talking about is now penetrating into the mainstream media. And that is why it is increasingly conservative.

INGRAHAM: It's called being resourceful in dealing with the cards you have in front of you. And that is what conservatives have done.